Project Manager

We have a blast learning about Andrea’s job as a Project Manager and her journey to becoming one. She outlines some amazing accommodation requests and leaves us with some great advice.

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Transcript

Today we are talking to Andrea. Andrea is an IT Project Manager. And we are looking forward to chatting with her about her job. Hi Andrea, welcome.

00:14

Hello. Good morning. How are you guys?

00:15

Good morning, we’re doing great.

00:17

Good. Awesome, I’m excited to be here. Virtually.

00:21

Thank you, us too yeah. Alright, so Andrea tell us what an IT project manager does and what kind of what a day looks like for you.

00:30

OK sure, so an IT project manager, kind of in the generic sense, would help all the different technical teams and the business teams get on the same page about what we’re trying to do, what the goals are, and then work with each person and group to figure out the tasks. And then the project manager will literally put them all in order and figure out what has to happen in a certain order. And then the important thing is to figure out the super critical things that can’t be late, or the whole project’s in danger,

01:06

OK.

01:06

so that’s that’s called the critical path. So

01:09

Oh

01:09

it’s basically organizing a whole bunch of people and helping them not be stressed about what we’re trying to get done, ’cause we you know, breaking it down into bite size pieces.

01:19

OK, so you take the stress so everybody else can

01:25

do their part, right?

01:27

It doesn’t stress me out though

01:29

No?

01:29

because I like making order out of chaos

01:33

Yes.

01:33

so. So I I love it and I and I like UM when people feel relieved because now everybody is on the same page, so they count on me to bring up difficult topics. And you know, force conversations and get us to get to a common understanding so people

01:54

Yeah.

01:54

will tell me things outside of the meeting. And then I’m the one that brings it up and makes us get to a solution so.

02:01

That’s interesting, I like that. That’s awesome. What kind of projects do you guys work on?

02:08

Oh gosh, uhm. Well, I would say that I’m a project management generalist,

02:15

OK.

02:15

so any widget I could manage a project, so anything from like building a house to, like moving all of those things. But for work lately we’ve done some pretty big things like, we did we had to replace 24,000 computers for the Windows 7 to 10 migration.

02:38

Oh wow.

02:40

And so, uhm. I’m a senior program manager. Is my official title, so it’s a little bit different than a regular project manager because I’ve been doing this for 20 years. I actually design a whole system of communication and process

02:57

i

02:57

flow so that project was originally estimated to take two years and then I got involved and I helped us figure out ways to get it done in less than a year.

03:08

Wow fabulous.

03:09

So it’s basically that big systems thinking and seeing way more data points than most people can see.

03:17

Yeah.

03:17

And then my brain organizes it and I figure out how to communicate it and we do it. So that’s one example. Also, did we moved to a new building so I didn’t manage the construction part, but I helped everybody figure out the people moving part.

03:33

OK.

03:33

So like it was consolidating three buildings into one building. So it’s

03:37

Wow.

03:38

like this giant word problem right?

03:39

Yeah.

03:39

Of like, OK, you got to move these people before you can take their cubes down and move the cubes and set them up. And so this giant logic puzzle

03:49

Yeah.

03:49

of you know, like the cabbage in the wolf and the sheep kind of thing so

03:53

I love it, yeah. That sounds like a fun job.

03:58

Yeah, I think it is yeah.

04:00

I can see why I’ve been doing it for 20 years.

04:02

Yeah.

04:03

So is every project similar? Like you said, there are critical points. Is every project have the same critical points? Or do you have to redesign it every time you have a new project?

04:13

So there’s a I would say, kind of like a scaffolding that is the same for all projects. And then you’re basically organizing everything around

04:24

i

04:24

that scaffolding so like. There’s always a initiate phase where you’re talking about like should we even spend energy working on this? Is it going to bring us value? You know? So you have to figure that out. So there’s a framework for figuring that out. And then there’s a planning phase where you actually write a charter.

04:44

i

04:45

Which is, you know, a project document. But it’s basically a contract, like ship captains used to have a contract with the owner of the ship, so it’s a similar thing where you’re basically saying, like hey executives. This is what we think you want us to do. If we do this, will that be successful?

Oh, OK.

05:05

So that’s the planning phase and then when you get through that, that’s when you literally start, you know when when we weren’t virtual, we would be in a big room and literally have like 1000 post-its on the wall

05:16

haha

05:16

and move stuff for you know like oh that has to happen first. Or you know, oh we need a contractor for this bit. And then I would take that whole wall and turn it into a project plan which kind of looks like Excel. Uhm?

05:30

OK.

05:31

But the tasks all have relationships, so.

05:36

Is

05:36

Uhm,

05:36

it more? Sorry,

05:37

go ahead.

05:37

I was wondering, is it more enjoyable setting it up from the beginning when it’s kind of messy and organizing it? Or is it just as exciting once you move through the project and you start to complete things?

05:52

Uhm, for me it’s both. As long as I’m involved in the planning. Like

05:58

OK.

05:58

if somebody gave me something that they had already planned, I’m going to have to redo it most of the time because. I’m going to see efficiencies that they didn’t. I mean, that’s one of my superpowers as I can look and see. Oh, you know, like hey, that’s great, but if we had this you know it would save this many hours and yet there’s always a balance between, like when I have what I think we should do. But then I have to remind myself that it’s going to be a better product, a better project if I bring everybody else in because somebody always has an idea that I didn’t think of.

06:31

True.

06:32

But I have to remind myself of that

06:33

Yeah,

06:34

like.

06:34

OK.

06:36

Left to my own devices, I would just go figure it out and tell everybody what to do. But like I’ve learned that I don’t want to hurt a relation- a future working relationship by making someone not feel heard.

06:52

Of

06:52

’cause

06:52

course.

06:52

like I gotta, it’s a long term relationship, right? So I don’t want to win today and then them not feel good about working with me later.

06:59

Yeah, there’s a diplomacy to every project, I’m sure as well as I don’t know, you know, after you’ve done it awhile, I guess you don’t have to wear a rubber band and snap it. You just kind of go with the flow and he said, OK, I know know to deal how to deal.

07:12

yeah. And I’ve been with the same place for 15 years now so like I have what you call reputation collateral right? So like. You know, if I have a time when

07:22

i

07:22

I’m being more direct or terse, I think I have this whole background of good experiences for people, so they’ll understand, like. It’s just important to get to the point right now, and we don’t always have time for. You know how are everyones cats and kids and.

07:39

Niceties. Yep.

07:40

Yep.

07:42

Totally get that.

07:44

The yeah useful concept for me is the subject matter expert. A SME is

07:49

Yeah.

07:49

what we call that, and knowing that like it’s freeing for me because I don’t have to understand everything about what they know. They’re going to tell me what what I need to know from their stuff. I don’t have to take on, and I used to do that. I used to take on where like I needed to know everybody’s parts so well that I could figure out a plan. And then now it’s more. You know what I mean? I realized

08:14

Yeah.

08:14

that if I take all that on then it’s all on my shoulders.

08:18

Yeah, ah.

08:19

But if I trust them to tell me what they think we need to do. Then it’s their responsibility

08:26

Yeah.

08:26

if that part doesn’t work. Right?

08:28

Well.

08:28

So that’s been a big lesson.

08:30

Does it get less than you’re like when you took it all on yourself? Did it get more in your way? As well, like

08:37

Well.

08:38

I mean or is it just a more stressful that way?

08:41

It’s stressful, but it was also bad for the project,

08:44

Sure.

08:44

and so like when I’m the bottleneck and I’m having to make the decision so that that’s when I learned that. And that was a new skill I picked up is, you know, I ask the difficult question. And then I’m I shut up and I leave some space. And you know people will feel uncomfortable silent, so like they would start talking and figure it out. But if I jump in and make a decision for somebody’s area then, there you know, that could come back and bite me.

09:12

Sure.

09:12

So I would, you know,

09:13

You

09:13

restate

09:14

know ’cause 

09:14

you know I I hear you saying that we could make this work this way did I get that right? So I use a lot of scripts. There are a lot of things

09:22

yeah,

09:22

that I

09:22

yeah.

09:22

say exactly the same way every time and not only is it easier for me, but I think then people know what to expect when they work with me. They know if we’re having a difficult topic, I’m going to restate it, try and get us all on the same page. And then I’m going to get everybody to say they agree. So

09:40

Ah.

09:41

you know, I’ll say alright, checking for consensus and I’m like, you know, not is this the perfect solution or what we would do if we had $1,000,000. But can you live with this? And then when we leave the room, can you get behind it?

09:54

Yeah.

09:55

You know, I don’t want to hear in two days that you didn’t agree.

09:58

Yeah.

09:59

You know you have to tell me now so we can have a good workable solution so.

10:03

That’s awesome. Do you have the same team every time? Or do you pick and choose people based on budget constraints or subject matter pieces?

10:19

So there. There are every company has a different way to organize it. You know sometimes people are permanently assigned to the project manager and that’s their boss for the project and where I work right now they don’t do it that way. It’s more collaborative and then they’re, they’re frequent flyers, right? Like there

10:39

haha

10:39

are people that like on this flavor of project always work with this person for payroll or whatever, so that makes it easier because then the next time we work together you know that person trusts me. To listen when they say there’s an issue and to help them get it resolved. So they’re more likely to listen to me because I’ve listened to them.

11:01

That’s awesome,

11:03

I mean like I said, if it was up to me, I would just go plan the whole thing so. It goes against my nature to

11:10

But

11:10

need to work on the relationship part of things, but I lucked

11:15

but

11:16

out in one of my special interest was business relationships and I just basically. Learned how to have a system for that and script it because it didn’t come naturally to me at all.

11:29

It’s a good. I mean, it’s a good lesson and it’s an important thing to learn along the way I imagine.

11:34

Yep, Yep.

11:36

I can see how that’s helpful. Having been in positions where I didn’t do that and it was needed.

11:44

Yeah, well like, I think so now knowing that I’m autistic makes a big difference because I always thought that this was like a skill deficit and that if I could

11:55

i

11:55

keep working, I would eventually grow past it. But now I’m like it’s just a skilled difference and I just need to learn to translate better,

12:06

I like

12:06

you

12:06

that.

12:06

know and say like hey, this is difficult for me, you know, like when we have the whole plane figured out and you give me a new resource, who has different ideas and wants to change things, I find that incredibly stressful because we already have a plan and so you need to realize that now this means we’re replanning everything.

12:24

Yeah.

12:24

You know, so it’s been super helpful to know that. My brain is just working differently so.

12:32

Absolutely, that’s awesome.

12:34

So can you tell us some of the things that you enjoy about your job and some of the things that you don’t enjoy about your job?

12:42

I like that I’m always getting something different to do. It’s a new problem to solve, so there are some companies that have project managers and you just install the same product like 200 times. I don’t think I could do that.

12:56

Yeah.

12:57

Once things are cleaned up and working well, I get really bored and I have trouble paying attention. So how we’ve kind of adapted to that is I’ll we call what I do, designing the project and

13:10

OK.

13:10

then once it gets all smoothed out and we pilot it, somebody else takes it and goes and does it the you know dozens of times.

13:18

OK.

13:19

So I like that if I couldn’t do that and I had to do the same thing 100 times, I would really dislike that for

13:27

I

13:27

sure.

13:27

find that a Thora we were having this conversation the other day that I said something like, you know, when I get bored, i tend to make up problems, you know, and I wonder if you would just. You’re going to say you do too.

13:42

Well, when there’s space, I will figure out other things to make better.

13:47

OK right yeah.

13:49

You know so. I mean kind of like when we’re when you first get started. There’s a whole layer of problems that are obvious on the surface, and then you fix those. And then there’s like a whole another strata of issues, right? And

14:02

Right?

14:02

so. Yeah,

14:04

It’s

14:04

I mean

14:05

never

14:05

you know it’s

14:05

really complete.

14:06

you could go Infinity on the improvements, so that’s a struggle for me too, as like what? What’s good enough ’cause we don’t have time for perfect

14:15

Yeah.

14:15

and sometimes for me to let it go before it’s perfect. Is is a dislike of mine too.

14:21

Yeah, I definitely understand that.

14:24

I was going to say another dislike another thing that’s hard for me is small talk at work so.

14:32

But the flip side of that is that’s why people really like my meetings because there’s an agenda we talk about this stuff and then we get done. And we everybody goes and does whatever else they need to do.

14:45

But I do notice that. It is easier for me to do small talk with people I’ve known for a long time.

14:53

So how did you end up getting involved in the first place? In, in your field, is it something you fell into? Is it something you sought out? Got training for?

It’s pretty hilarious because

15:06

OK.

15:06

I was accidentally doing it for years and didn’t know there was a name for it.

15:11

Really,

15:11

So

15:11

huh?

15:12

yeah, I majored in. This is the over achiever autistic. I majored in humanities with a focus on medieval and Renaissance European history. And English literature. And then I minored in anthropology and Latin.

15:30

Oh is that

15:30

And

15:30

all?

15:30

that was undergrad, right? So then I did a ridiculously complicated- I made my senior project harder than it needed to be. Literally, and I completely fried myself. I it

15:45

Oh

15:45

was the

15:45

no.

15:45

first time I think I got to burnout,

15:47

Really.

15:48

but I didn’t know that’s what it was. So like I had a full ride for grad school and stuff and I just could not do it. I couldn’t do it so I decided not to go. And then I did also figure out though, I love reading and I love history and I don’t think I want to do that for work because I love it so much that I just want to do it because I enjoy it, right?

16:10

Yeah.

16:10

Like I want it separate from what I do for money.

16:12

Was that the lesson from the burnout? Or is that something you just realized separately?

16:16

That was the that was the meaning I ascribed to the burnout,

16:20

Very good,

16:20

I

16:20

OK?

16:20

guess, yeah yeah.

16:22

Nice, I like

16:22

And

16:23

how you

16:23

so

16:23

said

16:23

then.

16:23

that. By the way, yeah.

16:25

Yeah.

16:25

That’s an important distinction.

16:27

OK, OK. So then like it was hard for me to find a job big shocker, right? Because

16:34

yeah

16:34

I had this like history in English degree. So like I ended up, you know, having to take like I was a bank teller and I worked at a hotel front desk and then I worked it at a rental car agency.

16:48

yeah 

16:48

And then ended up in like the kind of claims support department, so that was my first time of process improvement is for that company. They wanted us to build out this new call center. So basically like instead of each car rental branch calling State Farm and saying you know so and so’s car is going to take two more weeks to fix. Do you approve the rental? There’s going to be a central call center that would make all those calls to be more efficient, right? So I actually got to help design what that looked like and help write procedures and stuff. I’ve never. I’ve never done that before and I lovIed it.

17:26

I bet. Yes.

17:27

So then I kind of moved sideways and got a job at a software company organizing training. So there would be like customers, bought the product and they got a certain amount of free training. So I needed to schedule that. But we also had to keep our training liability low,

17:45

OK.

17:45

right? So if we owe 100 people three classes and we have to travel for that? And we don’t remind them and push them taking it, right, then we have this big money spent that’s just sitting out there.

17:58

Yeah.

17:58

Does that make sense? Anyway.

17:59

Yeah, like

18:00

So

18:00

just like

18:00

so.

18:00

a backlog of

18:02

Exactly

18:02

yeah.

18:02

so with that job I made all kinds of innovations. I mean, it was an entry level job at the software company and I- I’ll date myself. When I started there, there was no email at work.

18:13

Oh wow.

18:14

So I figured out they were mailing confirmation letters for training and I can and I’m at pitched hey like hey we can use the fax machine instead, so we switched to that and then we got email later and then we switched from fax to email. So I was able to show that we would save money by not doing the mailing. Now selfishly speaking, it was irritating to me to do it because I know there were better ways to do it that weren’t so much work.

18:41

Yeah, yeah.

18:42

And so that kind of like, starting to notice that stuff that’s annoying because it seems like, there’s gotta be a better way.

18:50

Yeah.

18:51

That was my path. At that company. I would fix all the process issues in the area. And then I would get bored and I would go move to another department. So I got promoted 7 times

19:03

Oh

19:03

with that

19:03

wow.

19:03

company. And.

19:05

That’s awesome.

19:06

Yeah, one of my favorites was they had this Salesforce application that they built in house. And it was a complete failure. The sales people hated it.

19:18

Really.

19:18

Hated it, yeah. And then so for some reason the marketing VP was like look Andrea, can you go try to help them figure this out? Because they wanted to be able to see how many contacts the sales people were making. And you know how many contacts does it take to get a sale? Is this collateral useful or should we stop mailing out this hundred page manual, you know? So when I went into my first meeting with the sales people, they made me a T shirt that had a bullseye on the front of it. ’cause that’s how mad they were

19:49

Wow.

19:49

and how bad the application was. So like that was my first time of like go interview. All the people and balance what everybody needs and come up with something that’s a carrot for everybody.

OK.

20:03

So I had to translate what the business needed the marketing folks needed, translate that to what the sales people wanted and were willing to do. And then I had to. Translate business to geek to get the developers to do it, you know. So it was awesome and it was a huge success. ’cause it made a lot of things easier, but I could see those patterns right, so

20:27

Yeah.

20:27

like they had this one system where you would go request. You know brochures to be mailed to a customer and the sales people were having to put in the address and the name and pick what they wanted. And there was another place where you had to go log your calls. There’s another place where you requested RFP and I was able to see how to bring all that together so they had like one home page and they could enter the address one time and they you know anyway. So just that ability to see. All of the parts of something and figure out what does a simpler, better, more efficient way look like?

21:03

Yeah.

21:03

And then sell it.

21:06

Nice,

21:06

To people so

21:07

that’s awesome.

21:07

yeah.

21:08

It sounds like a lot of a lot of entrepreneurs. You see the problem, you fix it, you put it all together. I love- hear that a lot for those types of people who’ve started. These huge major companies that we use all the time. That’s cool.

21:23

From there the company got bought and I wanted to make sure I got kept on so I actually figured out a way to fly to California to do some training and ask for a job

21:34

Nice.

21:34

from the new sales person. So I’d been trying to get into sales. So anyway I did that and I was selling software. Not my favorite thing. And then they needed a Salesforce tool so I helped them build that. It was very difficult for me because they went to something that was not as good as what we had built.

21:54

OK.

21:55

Because they wanted to use as built platform, right? They wanted to use like I think it was literally Salesforce, but it didn’t do all the stuff that the one we built custom would do, and that was a huge problem for me. Like I really I was constantly having to talk myself down and be like look, you’re going to get paid. It doesn’t matter if you agree this is what you have to do.

22:18

That is a hard one.

22:19

It was very hard, but once I realized that I would just kind of give myself that little pep talk every day,

22:25

Yeah, Oh yeah, I’m getting paid. I know that one.

22:29

So my boss at that time she was like, well, are you gonna get certified? And I was like what are you talking about? And she said, oh as a project manager and I’m like as a what

22:41

i

22:41

like I had never heard of it. I didn’t know that’s what I was doing. And then a couple months after that the company started laying people off and after a couple rounds of layoffs I got laid off. But I knew it was coming

22:54

Yeah.

22:55

’cause we saw the earlier. And it was a pretty decent severance so I just decided to take off a year and I in my like my sister lived with me. My overhead. No, but anyway, I basically then went and took all the Microsoft Office classes I could. I went and took a bunch of project management classes, ’cause like I knew I had the skill set,

23:16

Yeah.

23:17

but I needed to know the lingo and all the tools and everything.

23:20

And people like to see those things listed, you know. Yeah. They want to see your name, PMP. Right.

23:28

Exactly, So I started out. I got a job at a big healthcare company and then from there I’ve been in healthcare IT since that. So that’s how I got there. It’s just basically the job followed the skills, I think.

23:41

That’s actually that’s perfect. That’s makes it something you get to enjoy more that way. Awesome.

23:50

That was a long answer.

23:51

No, no, we love it. It’s fantastic. Yeah, we really do. I think people are interested to hear hear the details. I mean I know I am and everybody is exactly like me so.

24:04

Nice.

24:06

Yeah, I need you all to teach me that pep talk thing.

24:12

Oh, the self pep talk.

24:13

Yes, that’s OK. It’s OK, I’m still getting paid. I don’t have to fight every battle I give

24:20

I

24:20

you

24:20

literally

24:20

that pep talk

24:21

had

24:21

also.

24:21

it on an index card taped to my monitor.

24:25

That’s great.

24:25

Literally. Because I guess I caught on early in life, that repetition is the mother of learning, right? So I just anything that I’m having trouble with. I just look at it all the time and make myself. It will eventually sink in like 600 repetitions,

24:41

Yeah.

24:42

right? OK?

24:43

I think your learning patterns are similar to mine, or at least the way we end up teaching ourselves things that we know we need. Like logistically,

24:52

yeah,

24:52

no, we need to accomplish, but are difficult. We set things

24:56

yeah.

24:57

up in our place so that we can actually do what we need to do.

25:00

yeah?

25:00

That’s kind of cool.

25:03

So let’s talk a little bit about how autism impacts you at work, right? We know sometimes it’s helpful for some of the ways that our brain works differently than other people, but sometimes it hinders us a little bit too. So let’s first talk about the obstacles. How autism gets in your way at work. What does that look like for you?

25:26

On projects I think I can avoid the level of small talk. That’s the little day-to-day relationship things that neurotypicals expect, but managing people was super hard for me. I’m not saying I couldn’t do it. I actually

25:47

oh

25:47

just took a lateral move in January to not managing people. So my company has a management track and a technical track and I just moved over

25:57

OK,

25:57

because

25:58

OK.

25:58

I was so exhausted by

26:03

dealing with employees.

26:05

Sure.

26:05

And I’m not good at mentoring. Like if you say, mentor this person like I don’t know what to do with them. I need a structure or script for that and so I think one of my biggest obstacles was while I was managing people. My boss would say, well oh, you just need to

26:20

i

26:21

figure out how to get people to feel more connected to you. And

26:26

Oh

26:26

I’m like

26:26

is

26:26

what

26:26

that all

26:26

does

26:26

I have

26:26

that

26:27

to do?

26:27

look like right? What does

26:28

Yeah.

26:28

that look like? he would say I don’t know what that looks like right?

26:32

So

26:32

That

26:32

you’re good

26:32

was

26:32

at mentoring.

26:33

before, right? I was exactly that was before I was diagnosed so I kind of didn’t know why that’s so difficult for me

26:41

Makes

26:41

but

26:41

sense.

26:41

I feel like if I had known I could have just been like look I am listening to you. This is hard for me, but then you know people would see that that’s just a difference. It’s not a deficit, right?

26:52

Sure,

26:53

And

26:53

yeah.

26:54

so that was hard, so that’s gotten easier since I made that lateral move.

26:57

Nice.

26:58

But what I’m the more I learn about autism, the more I realize I have a whole bunch of other obstacles that I didn’t even realize were obstacles. I didn’t realize other people couldn’t hear electricity, right? So

27:10

Yeah.

27:10

now I’m like, OK? Earbuds ear defenders at work. When we get back in the building, that’s going to be huge and then realizing. Why I get so tense when I have to travel like I have to have my packing list and I have my directions

27:27

Ah.

27:27

printed out in case

27:28

Yes.

27:28

my phone dies and you know, so those are obstacles I would say right now.

27:37

One of my biggest obstacles is my. Hang on a second, let me pause and figure out to say this

27:42

Yeah

27:47

There we go. This is hilarious that I was having trouble thinking of this one because it’s autistic inertia.

27:55

Awesome.

27:56

So I never realized why I just couldn’t seem to get going on some days and I didn’t know how to get out of it and

28:05

i

28:05

so I actually wrote up one of my little index cards. It’s like things to do when you’re having a tough day. That’s when I like would clean out old email. Rearrange my desktop so I think A) it was super important for me to figure out some little things I could do when I feel like that. But B) to realize what the heck it is

28:25

Yes.

28:25

and learn tricks. So even like this week I just learned the trick of just fill your brain up with something different. I don’t intend to listen to an audiobook all day because I don’t think I could concentrate. But to listen to an audiobook to get myself kick started, you know, and start doing the task while I’m distracted by the the audio book so. Anyway, I’m beginning as I learn more. I’m learning about the obstacles and I’m getting a. Ideas of what tactics I can use to avoid them, but

28:57

Yeah.

28:57

I’m also feeling empowered that when we get back in the office there are accommodations I’m going to ask for that I didn’t know I needed. I need natural light. I’d like them to move me to an office with natural light.

29:09

Nice.

29:11

But they’ve been super supportive about the accommodations I have for my sleep disorders, like I actually have a couch in my office. And

29:18

Awesome.

29:18

I have specific permission to nap at lunch because there was a policy that you could be fired for sleeping at work. So

29:26

Oh

29:26

I was like OK, I want it in writing.

29:28

yeah, nice.

29:30

That I can take a nap. So I would say those are my biggest obstacles because we already talked about like the once. I have a plan, it’s super stressful for them to throw another person into the mix that

29:41

Sure.

29:42

has role power to change what we’re doing. ’cause it feels like I wasted my time before that.

29:49

Yeah. That’s.

29:51

I think that’s it for a big obstacle.

29:54

That’s good, no, it’s great. It was interesting. We were talking about you, called it autistic inertia and it’s. It’s funny because as you’re saying, I’m like, oh, that’s what that is. If I’m not in this space to do the thing that I want to do, I have taught myself like I end up cleaning like everything has to be in

30:11

everything.

30:11

Its place.

30:11

Oh gotcha,

30:12

Everything goes back

30:12

yeah.

30:12

to its place, so I’ll just. I’ll feel very stressed and I’ll just say, alright. Everything has to go! So I’ll just go from room to room and kind of put things where I know everything needs to be and then I’ll start feeling more comfortable. And then I can take on whatever it was. It is things in their place and it is also the budget being. Being current like shored up everything is in the budget and we know where we’re at money wise. But

30:37

I

30:37

the only

30:37

do

30:37

problem with

30:37

that.

30:37

that.

30:38

I didn’t realize I would y’all I do

30:40

Yeah,

30:40

that too.

30:41

Do you? Nice.

30:42

It’s hilarious, OK?

30:43

Yeah, but the only problem with that is then that one task that should take 15 minutes ends up taking about 3 1/2, four hours and it’s usually on like a day off because that’s the only time I have that much time and you know, it’s like, what did I do, you know? And it just feel lost.

31:01

Before I had my autism diagnosis also, I had some neuro psych testing done a couple years ago,

31:07

OK.

31:07

so which is kind of funny now. ’cause like I knew something was up

31:10

Yeah.

31:10

up, it was, some working memory issues and one of the things that she the doc suggested to me is to talk out loud about what I needed to do. Because I’m I’m a verbal and auditory processor, so the value of going to that different place in my brain. Right, if you’re writing something that’s different than if you’re saying it and hearing it, and that made a huge difference for me too, so I don’t care if people think that’s weird. I’m going to start talking about the thing I need to do and pretend like I’m talking to somebody else about it, or even talk to somebody else about it. So like

31:48

Nice.

31:48

that’s that’s a new. A new tactic

31:53

I actually do that audiobook thing with chores, too, because like I’ll get so overwhelmed. But if I just start an audiobook or podcast or even music, then it distracts me from how much I don’t feel like doing that thing.

32:06

Yeah.

32:08

So that’s kind of a tip there. Or get on the phone with somebody.

32:12

That’s good, yeah.

32:13

I did think of another obstacle that I plan to ask for accommodations around.

32:17

Yeah, what’s that?

32:18

Well, 2. One Is work schedule, so

32:21

OK.

32:22

you know I have days that are lower spoons than others

32:25

Uh huh.

32:25

and it would be really great if my net hours for the week were the thing that was measured instead of per day, right?

32:31

I like that,

32:32

So if I have

32:32

ah.

32:32

a junk day on Tuesday and I’m kind of two hours short, if I could just if I have energy, if I can make that up instead of having to take time off, that would be helpful. And then the second one is zoom fatigue. I mean, that’s real.

32:46

Yeah.

32:46

And they recently came out with the thing that we have to have our cameras on.

32:51

Oh no.

32:52

And that’s incredibly exhausting, because

32:55

Absolutely.

32:56

I read an article about it like women are- because we’re we’re policing or what our face is doing right? We’re trying to act interested in what somebody saying we’re nodding. I literally can’t focus on what people are saying when that’s happening, so I I did tell my boss, like, look. I need you to back me up on this, but I’m going to turn my camera on in the beginning and I’ll turn it on when I’m talking, but I can’t have it on. Because I’m worrying that people are looking at me and I might have the wrong thing on their face, which

33:27

Yeah.

33:28

is the most masking thing ever

33:30

Right?

33:30

that I’m that worried about my facial expressions, you know,

33:34

Yeah.

33:34

but.

33:36

Oh, I totally

33:37

So.

33:37

get that. Oh I get that.

33:40

So let’s talk about the fun stuff. The abilities that you

33:43

OK?

33:43

have because your brain works different. How does that help you as a project manager, I can imagine multiple things, but I’d love to hear how that looks for you.

33:53

Yeah, so one thing is my hyper empathy. So

33:57

OK.

33:58

when I’m in a meeting and I know the people that are there. I can literally tell what’s going to be a problem for some people, right? So for example, we were moving this move project and I and the person who’s in charge of the budget was sitting over here and somebody starts talking about like Oh well. Just do this, this, and this and it was like $100,000 and I knew she probably wasn’t going to bring it up.

34:21

But you could,

34:22

Because

34:22

yeah.

34:22

I know her, but I knew. And so then I was able to, you know, guess what her problem is and state it and say well, is anybody else worried about that? And then her

34:33

ahah

34:33

and two other people you know.

34:34

Yeah.

34:35

So that did that. I think I not only learn what the business needs, but I also learn like what’s important to that person

34:42

Yeah.

34:42

and then that’s literally part of my calculation when I’m doing things. And so. Uhm yeah yeah

34:50

That’s gotta be super

34:50

that’s a

34:50

helpful.

34:50

good one.

34:51

Yeah,

34:52

It is,

34:52

that’s awesome.

34:52

it is. My alexithymia can be a really big advantage at work too, because I don’t get upset while something is happening.

What

35:03

I

35:03

is that

35:04

like

35:04

now

35:04

I

35:04

I?

35:04

get through it. Oh, alexithymia is like. My understanding of it is like when you’re not knowing you’re experiencing an emotion or which emotion it is and why.

35:15

OK, yes.

35:16

So I have delayed emotional processing is another way to look at it, right?

35:21

OK.

35:21

So like, in that active confrontation I stay relatively calm and I can kind of compartmentalize it to deal with it later, but if it gets to a certain threshold then I kind of freeze, but in the business world, that’s better than you know, like blowing

35:40

Blah blah blah.

35:40

up and saying the wrong thing, so

35:41

Yeah.

35:41

I think that’s been advantageous at work. And then I can come back after the fact and you know. Figure it out. Figure

35:48

Yeah,

35:48

out what I need to do.

35:49

that’s important. Nice, I like

35:51

And

35:51

that.

35:51

just that the design aspect of what I do so. I’m able to see the pattern like I mentioned that Windows project figuring out how to do that a year faster. So I think it’s that. Seeing a problem prewiring the conversation where I anticipate what I need to talk about and what their objections are going to be, and then I can kind of help them. Steered to a couple solutions so.

36:19

That’s fantastic.

36:20

Does that

36:21

Yeah

36:21

make sense?

36:21

I love it, yeah.

36:26

So silly question on that. When you

36:28

Sure.

36:28

put that into a time.

36:33

Like a timetable, I guess. Do you factor in that it takes a lot longer to do the first one and then by the you know the ones that go along or go much much

36:44

That’s

36:44

faster?

36:44

a great question. Yeah, that’s a great question. We have something in it called the first time, first use penalty.

36:50

OK.

36:51

And what that means is you do not know what you do not know.

36:55

Yeah.

36:56

And so kind of like we’re having to advocate right now for pilots, because

37:00

OK.

37:00

a lot of people don’t understand why you need to pilot something. And so I’ve been coming up with analogies for that, but basically, like it’s going to take longer the first time because there’s so many new things you’re going to figure out. And if you iron those out. You can do the subsequent ones faster because you will prevent those problems,

37:18

Yeah.

37:18

but if you don’t pilot.

37:20

And

37:20

And

37:20

then you

37:20

you

37:20

got to

37:21

figure

37:21

fix

37:21

out what

37:21

100

37:21

you think

37:22

of them.

37:22

is the plan and you take what you think is the plan that’s untested and you go do it 100 times. Let’s just say you have 4 problems per project. That’s 400 issues,

37:32

Yeah

37:33

whereas

37:33

wow.

37:33

if you had tested at once, fix those four issues right? Then you just had four things to fix, not 400,

37:41

Yeah.

37:42

so like. Yeah, that’s a that’s a great question, so you could get faster. You can do more than one at a time when you figure out how to do it better. So like you could do kickoffs for like a group of people after you’ve tested it with one person. Yep.

37:58

Right on that’s awesome. That is very cool.

38:03

Good question.

38:04

Thanks.

38:10

For our listeners, that was me patting myself on the back.

38:18

I’m curious because so we talked about a couple of things that you were talking about asking for some of the accommodations. And of course I was most interested in the couch because that would be fantastic. All that had nothing to do with your autism. They had to your sleep issues. I don’t know how they say that without.

38:36

I I actually think I am only now realizing how much those two things impact each other.

38:43

Ah.

38:43

So I don’t know how much of my sleep disorder is autistic burnout.

38:48

You know that’s we had talked to somebody in one of our.

38:55

Interviewees and they had mentioned it was so, so interesting that. He had thought basically so much of Diagnosis is are from autistic people dealing with the world. How do you say that?

39:11

they’re like stress, stress, exacerbated conditions.

39:17

Yeah.

39:19

Based on the autistic profile.

39:22

Yeah I like

39:22

Maybe?

39:23

that. Yeah, that’s what I said. She was just copying me.

39:31

But yes, so separating out what causes my autistic self to be more stressed and overwhelmed and over stimulated is benefiting my sleep disorder

39:45

It

39:45

because.

39:45

makes sense.

39:47

I didn’t you know cortisol makes the sleep disorder worse. It’s

39:51

OK.

39:51

a. Idiopathic hypersomnia, so like. Stress immediately I have to go sleep so

39:58

Yeah.

39:59

figuring out more things to cut out, overstimulation. On things that bothers me is making me less stressed so.

40:09

Interesting,

Good stress on projects though like there well it may be good for me, but not other people right? Is that that I enjoy the the pressure to fix the broken thing

40:23

Yeah.

40:23

that’s stressful. Change is stressful for people that kind of change and making something better change is not stressful for me. What’s stressful for me is something being crappy and I don’t have power to fix it.

40:36

Got

40:36

So

40:36

it, yeah?

40:37

as long as there’s like a dynamic aspect of what I can do. Then it’s not as stressful for me.

40:43

Yeah, for me, and I’m not trying to tell you how you’re supposed to feel. ’cause that’s

40:47

Oh

40:47

not

40:48

no

40:48

what

40:48

no no

40:48

I’m up to,

40:49

no.

40:49

but for me, like I find that more exhilarating excitement for me. I

40:55

Yep,

40:55

think to you know,

40:56

Yep.

40:56

I don’t find that stressful. I love problem solving, especially in the moment where I know, you know, the whole outcome of whatever it is I’m working on hinges on me. Figuring out just the right thing to do right here.

41:09

Yeah, Yep, that makes sense.

41:14

So we’re really excited to see how successful you’ve been and how much you have been able to take all of your strengths and make them work for you, and it’s really exciting. I would love to know and I think our listeners would love to hear from you. What kind of advice would you give to somebody who’s either just learning their diagnosis or just entering the workforce having this diagnosis? What would you say to them?

41:45

I think as far as the just getting the diagnosis just, I would say read everything you can get your hands on by adult autistics because nobody can beat that lived experience and you

41:59

Yeah.

41:59

know, no neurotypical doctor is going to have any idea honestly of what’s beneficial for you and you kind of just gotta go in distrusting that you

42:08

Yeah.

42:08

know and then realize when you’re hearing things about yourself. That say a deficit and you know these things need correction or social skills issues. That’s all junk, we’re just different. It’s like learning Greek, right?

42:23

Yeah.

42:23

It’s just a whole another way of communicating and interacting and so. Just be accepting of the fact that you’re different. It’s totally OK, we just have to squish the world out of the way and make take up. We need to take up more space and be

42:39

There

42:39

OK

42:39

you go.

42:39

with ourselves and take up that space.

42:41

I love it.

42:42

I highly recommend there’s a couple sensory checklist where you can go try stuff. And that’s been the single most useful thing for me just to go through online and be like OK. Do you like being in the grass with no shoes on or not? Just like learning about that so that you can go try things out so that when you do get over stimulated, you have an arsenal of things to try and then you can learn more. So like there are so many things. That I was not aware bothered me and there were so many things that I was not aware was a stim that was helpful to me.

43:20

Yeah.

43:21

That’s just been amazing to find out, so I think. My life is literally better than it was three months ago because of just that part. So

43:30

Wow.

43:31

I would. I would prioritize that part of things, yeah.

43:34

That’s awesome.

43:35

Like I wear earplugs all the time now.

43:37

Yeah.

43:38

Not not you’re not headphones, but just noise kind of baffler dampener things and that’s been crazy. Like I love to sit outside, but I would get so irritated when like somebody’s mowing their grass or some kids screaming like if it was like a consistent noise. It doesn’t bother me, but the punctuated loud noises

43:57

Yes.

43:57

make and I think I wish it wasn’t like this but now I go sit outside with the ear plugs in. And I feel like I’ve been on vacation. I mean it. It’s just completely different. It’s

44:10

Huge

44:11

amazing.

44:11

difference, I think we have those is it

44:13

Yeah.

44:13

kind of like the well we have the flare ones. The flare audio and they’re not

44:17

Yeah.

44:17

actual plugs. OK they’re like a redirection

44:20

Yeah.

44:21

of the vibration of the sound, so it just kind

44:23

Oh

44:23

of it

44:24

yeah.

44:25

rounds off the sharp edges of all the noises. Which I love. Yeah, it’s been very helpful. Yeah.

44:30

Yeah.

44:33

I was going to say about the job

44:35

Yeah.

44:36

about starting out on a job or or. Re examining what you want to do for a job after diagnosis too. So like I think either way If you can’t be candid about what you’re good at, if you have somebody you can bounce ideas off of and try and figure out what jobs that might line up with,

44:55

It’s going

44:56

but

44:56

to do.

44:56

there’s also a lot of free podcasts, can I mention one? Do

45:02

Sure,

45:02

you guys care

45:02

absolutely

45:03

to 

45:03

yeah.

45:04

OK. It’s called manager-tools.com, and that’s like I have listened to all of those. So whether you want to be a manager or not, it has all kinds of great tips for how to interview. And you know, like when you’re new at some place, how do you get started?

45:25

And make yourself valuable so it’s got a ton of helpful hints.

45:29

That makes sense. I love it.

45:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that’s super helpful

45:36

Yeah, I know ahead of time now. It’s good advice. I like that thank you Andrea for coming onto the show and teaching us about your job. Thank you. Yeah, we’re happy to have you here

45:45

Thank

45:45

with us.

45:46

you. OK, this was fun. This was a pleasure. Thank you guys.