UX Product Designer

Speaker 0 00:00:12 Take 392. Maybe we'll get it right this time. I hope so. Uh, welcome back. This is autism on shift. My name is Thor dammit. All right. Take 395. Ready? All right. I'm Adam. I'm sorry, what happened at 393? Thanks for joining us at autism on shift. All right. Today we are talking to Christophe Folger. Did I say that right? Kristoff? Yep. That's right. Awesome. Welcome to our show. Thank Speaker 1 00:00:47 You. Thank you for having me. Speaker 0 00:00:49 Chris stops is a product Speaker 1 00:00:52 Product designer, a UX product designer, Speaker 0 00:00:56 UX. That means user experience. Speaker 1 00:00:58 I, yeah, I usually put that in front of it because people sometimes confuse it with the idea of an industrial designer or industrial product designer. Okay. Oh, okay. So I bet the UX, the UX field kind of co-opted that title a few, a little while ago. So Speaker 0 00:01:14 Awesome. So what is it that you do tell us what a day looks like? And Speaker 1 00:01:18 So, you know, um, when somebody asks me, you know, what are you doing mean it's just in passing. I just say, Oh, I build websites because it's the simplest answer. But I'm a user experience. Designer is somebody who takes in account the use of, of something. And, um, talks to the users, finds out how to make it better. What do they need? What do they desire? What is the best way to deliver it for them? They work through processes, solutions, testing of those solutions and then work to deliver the solution. So all around kind of guy, it can be a product designer is kind of the title of the all around because under product, product design, you will not under, but in that same field or area, you've got user experience, you've got a user experience. Researchers. You've got people who focus on just the research side of it. Speaker 1 00:02:06 Um, and then you've got, um, UX, uh, design systems where they're working on the actual, you know, buttons and elements and components. So reusable components that are used throughout an entire application. So they spent a lot of time focusing on how, how these interactions, you know, form fields, buttons, um, you know, uh, visual cards, what all the visual elements and that they'll spend a lot of time building and getting those fine tuned. Um, and then there's people who, who deal in interactions, interaction designer is also another type of vision of a UX designer. And those are people who, who designed the, the individual interactions. So say if you click a button and the button bounces, or maybe it loads, or maybe those are the simplest little tiny motion graphics that you'd use as an interaction, but other interactions are, you know, on a, on a mobile phone, a S w a website, uh, you hit next, or you had a link on a page and the whole page loads. Yeah. But in a, in a mobile UI, you hit a button and the whole thing, slides sideways, giving you the appearance that you're moving sideways. So that, that was designed by an interaction designer. Somebody who thinks, how, how should this, how should this digital thing interact? Speaker 2 00:03:16 Right. Yeah. That's my kind of my style of visual stuff. I enjoy that. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:03:20 Yeah. Yeah. So those are, those are all the types of things that go into it. Product designers, um, usually do a little bit of all of that. Um, and I currently work as a product design team of one, so it's just me and the only, only product designer on our team, I work with directly with, uh, with the product managers and the developers and I wear a lot. Speaker 2 00:03:40 Yeah. I bet you do. Yeah. Now, does the manager, uh, come in with, uh, your ex uh, the expectations for you from other people was needs then as well? Or do you, do you still work with those other people for what their needs are, uh, within your company? You mean the product manager? That's correct. Yes. Speaker 1 00:04:00 Mm. Yeah. Um, I didn't know if he met my manager or the product manager. So the product manager, they, you, you had somebody on a few weeks ago talking about what a product manager does. Um, they, so they manage the, uh, um, the, um, what you want to say, the, the logistics of it and the schedule of it. When should we deliver, how should we deliver? They'll work with marketing, they'll look at other teams they'll meet with, they'll meet with customers, clients, and, and find out what, what type of things should we be building to, to, uh, to create market value. And I work with them to do some research into those things. Maybe they'll come in and they'll say, Hey, we think we might want some of this. Well, let's do some research. Let's look into it and see, do so to do some competitive research. Speaker 1 00:04:39 Let's take a look at one of our top competitors. That's doing it. And maybe we can leverage some things that they're not doing that we could do better, or, you know, what, what can, wait, what can we do to, to, to make an impact in this, uh, both business impact and help the user? Is there some way that you can do this problem that would help the user do it better? Because if you help users do it better, hopefully they'll stick around longer. Right. And of course, that's the thing, right? You want to keep, like, that's measurable when someone usability side or in a, in an app is how long they've been there. Right? Yeah. There are certain analytics that you can put on things. You know, that the one that people use the most Google analytics, we can see bounce rate. How long do people come to a website? Speaker 1 00:05:20 How long are they there? You can put in little triggers in and work with, we work with the developers to put in triggers around certain buttons, certain clicks, how long are they there? What are they doing? Um, you got heat maps. Um, we've also got something that a lot of people might not like, but it's user session recording as well. So you can record the sessions. You can record the clicks and actually see where they're clicking and what they're doing next and how long it took them and the software that we're using to do that kind of thing. Also measures rage clicks. So when somebody clicks the button several Speaker 2 00:05:50 Times, um, they they're, Speaker 1 00:05:53 They're enraged. They're pissed. So it, it actually, it actually flags, it actually flags those. And we can go back and look and see what were they doing right before that, that made them feel so frustrated. Speaker 3 00:06:03 Yeah. That's interesting. Big. Brother's watching us, I think call print color. Oh yeah. Speaker 1 00:06:09 Any company's lists and their rage click dangerous Speaker 3 00:06:12 Red flags all over the place. Speaker 1 00:06:15 I may have. I may have let you in and the users behind the curtain that I shouldn't have, don't ignore that man behind the curtain. He's not doing anything Speaker 3 00:06:23 Now. I think when I was in school, my favorite class was always recess. So I am curious now that we are older and we work, uh, what's the favorite part of your job? I like recess. Yeah. You guys have recess. I'm going to apply today. Speaker 1 00:06:39 The tech field in Seattle, they probably have like a, a fun, uh, no, we don't have a slide in our office. No, it's a, it's a smaller company that I work for. Um, there's only a couple hundred people and we've got two offices. We've got my hand here in here in another place. Um, so it's kind of spread out a little bit, but, and right now we're not even on the office anymore. So I don't even have a slide in my backyard. This is awful. Um, but it was my favorite part. I'm, I'm, I'm like a creator at heart. I love to create something. I love to feel satisfied with what I, what I did. Um, so I'm one of those lucky people who my special interest is my, Speaker 3 00:07:14 Yeah. So the achievement of completing things and create, and that's fantastic. I love that. Cool. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:07:20 I, I have, uh, I've had a special interest in design ever since I was in, uh, uh, in fourth grade. That's great. So I've been trying, ever since I was a kid, somebody asked me, uh, I was asked in sixth grade, what do you want to be when you grow up? I said, I want to be a commercial artist. What is that? I don't know, but it's got artists in the name Speaker 3 00:07:37 And then usually means money. So, you know, our listeners can't see, but you have the Legos. So you're, uh, we're at, Speaker 1 00:07:44 Oh, I guess that's not fair. That's not part of my job though, Speaker 3 00:07:47 By now clearly, but I enjoy the creating. Obviously Speaker 1 00:07:51 I love it. I love the problem solving. I love the working with things and trying to figure out solutions. Yeah. And this is basically like a freeform puzzle. I'd love it. I don't, I don't like putting together a puzzle that has a prescribed shape. Okay. Um, but I do love building something that doesn't have a pre described shape. Speaker 3 00:08:07 Awesome. And so you get a lot of them at your work. That's perfect. Yep. Speaker 1 00:08:11 Yeah. I mean a lot of work. I, uh, I like, I like building it. I like figuring out what it needs to be. Is it the right solution? I love seeing it, seeing people use it. Um, and of course it's satisfying when somebody comes back and says, that just looks right. Good job. Speaker 3 00:08:23 Yeah. Nice. When you knew go on. Speaker 1 00:08:27 No, I'm actually, I'm not very ego-driven um, I've, I've had to have a lot of people, um, uh, um, tried to tell me that I'm better than I am. So Speaker 3 00:08:35 I take the compliment pal. Speaker 1 00:08:37 I suffer from imposter syndrome if I'm in the career in the creative field, and this is in the creative fields was first place I had heard of it. And imposter syndrome is the idea that, um, that you, you don't feel qualified for the work that you're doing and you you're, you're worried that, that someone, either your boss or your colleagues or your peers are going to find out that you're an imposter and that you've been faking it all along. Yeah. Yeah. I I've been doing this for 20 years. I've been doing this for 20 years. I still feel like I'm an imposter. Speaker 3 00:09:07 Do you think that having that, um, has you do a better job, um, thinking you're never good enough kind of feeling or, you know, does that make sense? Speaker 1 00:09:18 Um, yes. Um, it, it does. I, I think it's part of the, uh, the, the autism has a drive to me to want to do a better job, to want, to want to prove to myself and prove to everything else. I mean, I I'm late diagnosed. I'm only being diagnosed for a couple of years, but even before then, I always wanted things to be just right. Wanted things to be as perfect as I could make them. I wanted to be proud of what I delivered and I wanted the person who I'm working for to be proud of what I delivered. Um, even when I was a, uh, a pizza hut, general manager back when I was 22, I wanted the people I worked with and worked for, and the people who worked for me to be proud of working with, or for me. Yeah. And I think that is part of the imposter syndrome. Now, imposter syndrome is not a characteristic of autism, but I think that we actually might suffer from it more, um, more often than someone who is not autistic. I would agree with that. It's that, it's that idea that you're always trying to fake it and be something you're not trying to fit in trying to. Yeah. Yeah. I think you hit on that. Yeah. Speaker 4 00:10:20 Well, and a lot of our childhood is based around that. You know, we are, we are, it's very clear to us very early on, late diagnosed or not. We are different and we know it. Yeah. Yeah. And if we don't know it, someone's out there to tell us, you know, so I get that, that, um, the prevalence of that in the community, probably for that reason, one of the biggest, Speaker 3 00:10:40 The ones I heard was, uh, do you think you're funny? You know, I was like, um, no, no, no. If I could just go back to the more I said yeah. Funny. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:10:51 And it's part of why, the reason why I reached out to you to, to be interviewed for this show, I want to tell people that they are good. There are things that you're there, things that you're good at. You're autistic. That doesn't mean a dang thing. I'm autistic and I've actually have a I'm gainfully employed and I'm rather successful in my career. I've been doing it for 20 years. Love what I do. I'm not saying everybody can do what they do, what they want to do, but there's nothing to say you can't. Right. Right. Exactly. So at least at least go into it with that thought. Right. Yeah. Because I mean, for the last 20 years, I've been telling myself I can't for the last 20 years, I've been telling myself I can't. So, and I still made it, made it somewhat successful. I'm not rich. I'm not, I'm not this successful saddle or Seattleite up here, by the way. Um, I didn't go to school until I was 27 and I didn't, I just kinda went right into, uh, uh, production design job after that. And I spent 15 years at the same company, but I learned a lot and got good at it. Yeah. That's I think that's great. Speaker 2 00:11:55 Can you tell us, um, uh, more about how getting your diagnosis? Sure. Speaker 1 00:12:00 So I am a father of two kids and my son had behavioral issues, um, throughout, uh, early childhood in, through, um, in through elementary school. Okay. And we were in salt Lake city, um, and salt Lake city, Utah is, uh, it's not as, uh, as progressive in a lot of ways. And, um, the autism, um, diagnosis doesn't come up as much because a lot of people think that it's, it's the new Fanny, it's the new handy thing. This was back in, uh, 2004 to 2008. Um, so, um, it only came up once and it was because he was sitting in a room and she was actually a junior doctor. I don't remember because we went to a, uh, a teaching clinic. It was a UDaB clinic. Then they had, uh, like interns and stuff working there too. And so she was, she was meeting with him and, um, and he played with the toys that were in the office and wouldn't turn around and talk to her. Speaker 1 00:12:58 So she said, well, have you considered that he might have autism. And to me, autism, that he didn't speak autism meant he had, you had all of these other issues. I knew what I knew. I thought I knew what autism was and they're like, no, we can't shut him up. He is a talker. He's just like me. He talks does know you, you don't, you're not seeing, you're not seeing the real him right now, so that didn't come up again. And he was diagnosed with a behavior disorder, not otherwise specified. It means we don't know what he is, but he has got some issues. So, um, when we came up here to Seattle, he was going into, um, 12th grade. It was, uh, it was middle school. And, um, it was a really hard year for him. Um, and we got him to a psychologist up here, um, because he has been seen in a psychologist all along, um, um, or a psychologist or whatever, what I'm awful with, whatever titles they have, but seeing somebody from it for mental support. Speaker 1 00:13:50 Yeah, sure. And so we found him with someone up here and really early, he says, I think you should consider autism as a diagnosis. And, um, but he, the way he described it was you should consider autism spectrum. And I started learning more about what that meant. And so we took him to the Seattle children's to get him tested, to get the, uh, formal, um, uh, uh, children's testing. And so at this point, like I said, I said, he's 12. He got diagnosed when he was 13 as being on spectrum and, and ADHD. Oh, he he'd been diagnosed years before with ADHD. Okay. Unlike me, he's a, he's hyperactive. He talks fast and he gets through things that are really quick. Um, so he, he was diagnosed with ADHD and behavior issues. Um, so he's diagnosed with autism that I won't get into w w what kind of world of hell that, that had at his school, but it was hard to get him the support he needed in school. Speaker 1 00:14:44 But as we started going through some training classes, cause the UDaB had us had some classes about how to, you know, welcome to autism, come, come learn to be a parent all over again. And, uh, so I went to the classes and of course, everybody else in the class, um, had kids that were five and seven and my kid's 13. Um, so he was, you know, he was, what's considered late diagnosis. And as I learned these coping mechanisms, people were talking about, Oh, you know, if you do this, when that happens, or do you think so, so coping mechanisms was a thing I'm like, um, I, I do coping and as we go through all of these things and more and more, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, um, I just thought this was part of his personality. He's a lot like me. I'm like, uh, we just father and son, right. Speaker 1 00:15:27 There's more to, there's more to this than that. So one day I turned to my wife and I'm a hypochondriac to every little thing. I think I have, I, Jessie, I think when you look at this spot, what is that? I think I'm all my gosh, I have this right. I have, I have, um, you know, everything in anything and every issue and always calm myself into believing it. And I turned to her and I said, Jesse, I think I might be autistic. And she looks at me and she goes sure as fuck you are. Speaker 4 00:15:55 Okay. Speaker 1 00:15:55 So it was, it was an amazing moment where I was like, wow, wait a minute. She's seeing something that might be real. So my son, like I said, it had lots of troubles in school and I just kind of flipped. I just kind of went with it. And as we learned more about him, he was getting settled down in school. He was in a <inaudible>. We sent him to a, uh, well not sent him. He got signed up for an alternative school in downtown Seattle called Nova. It was a really awesome school, a really great environment, lots of people on, um, on, in, uh, in, in with IDPs. Um, so they knew how to work with kids. Um, yeah, I won't get into too much detail, but there was another little bump bump later on. But, um, I, I just thought it was my turn. Um, I had full coverage, uh, mental health, uh, but getting me to go to a doctor is impossible. So, um, Speaker 4 00:16:41 Yeah, Speaker 1 00:16:43 That's another common trait. Um, so I, I started going to a doctor and, um, I got diagnosed with sleep apnea too, which I didn't know. I knew, I knew I'd had for years. I'd never, I don't want to go a, doctor's going to tell me bad things. Yeah. So anyway, I decided to finally, um, get into a place and said, Hey, I want to get diagnosed. I want to get checked to see if I might have autism. And so I met with a woman who was specialized in it and went through several sessions. Um, she said, yeah, I'm pretty, pretty positive. We will diagnose you. Um, I haven't gone through any formal testing. Um, you know, because I've heard that they don't necessarily have the same kind of testing that they do with children. Um, so the adult testing is a lot different and wait times and all this other stuff. I mean, I actually, I really don't need it. Speaker 4 00:17:30 Yeah. It's a lot more subjective, uh, based on the person who's giving the testing versus kids, you know, it's pretty, it's diagnostic it's, you know, did they do this check? Did they do that check? You know, Speaker 1 00:17:44 And the diagnosis really comes down to what kind of support do you need when you look at the DSM five? Um, it, it doesn't measure whether or not you're autistic. It measures whether or not you need support. If you look at the actual wording in the DSM five, I am not autistic because I don't need support. Okay. And that's a bunch of crap just because I figured out what it meant, coping mechanisms. I still have a lot of other things that I fail on, or I can't do well, and I can't do this. So even to consider that somebody that doesn't necessarily need constant support or even any support to not be, I don't know the wording. Yeah. Agree. It actually kind of upset me the DSM-V wording of, of how to, how to qualify and quantify it. I maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should go back and read it again, but it's not necessarily the support I need. Speaker 1 00:18:32 It's the understanding, it's the understanding of who I am, who I know, who I know I am and that there may be ways that I process things differently. So, um, for instance, if, if I do process a lot of things really fast, really off the cuff, and it's like, those are the things I really know I'm experienced at yet. We do that in that, that if I'm presented with a new problem or issue, and it's not something that immediately get figured itself out because a lot of things are very immediate. And, and, and I, and I, I will take people on like a, uh, a discussion journey with me as we're figuring out the solution. And that is usually organic and happens right there on the spot. So I need people to be willing to go through that method with me, but then if that doesn't pan out, or if something isn't quite right, I need to drop it because, and we'll need to come back and look at it again later. Speaker 1 00:19:20 Okay. Because I need you to, my mind needs to get like percolate on it. And, and a lot of people it's pretty common in the, in, in the industry to say, you know, well, let's just think about this. Let's let's let's and let's put, let's put a pin in. I don't like that one, but that's because somebody doesn't that's because somebody doesn't want to talk about a topic. Yeah. When, uh, when I, when I, I just want the, the, the, uh, the ability to do that and come back and respond in a very thoughtful way, Speaker 4 00:19:48 If I may speak to your imposter for a moment. Okay. That is a support need. That is a legitimate support need. Hey, I need you to be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:19:58 And I was, you know, I was thinking over here too, it's, it's interesting because support is in, unless I read something or somebody outright says, um, you know, because, you know, we cope and we figure out through our lives, how to deal with, so any anyone who's either late diagnosed or didn't realize, you know, it's like, we already have all these things that we do, uh, to, to deal. And unless someone says, well, that's something, you know, that's a need, you know, that's something you might need support with. And then you think about it like, Oh, you know, that's a very good point. Like, that's something I, I, I struggle with, but I don't realize I struggle with it because I have attached something to my life to deal with. Speaker 1 00:20:37 Yeah. Yeah. That comes up more frequently than, um, and it is sometimes I feel a little sheepish about it as like, you're right. I, I do need help with that. Um, and where I would, I would perform so much better as I put it. When I, when I first went to my therapist to find out, um, if I had autism or not, what I really wanted to know is can I find out things about me that will make me a better me? Are there, are there just things about me that I need to know? And I haven't experienced that would make me better at my job, make me better at my life, make me better in my relationship with my wife, you know, are there things that, that I've, as you mentioned, like attached onto things with my life and to my activities, am I doing things, not doing things based entirely off of some childhood childhood thought or, or, or, or, or action that caused me to do? Speaker 2 00:21:24 That's the one that's the only way to grow. I think it's fantastic. You know, that's the self-reflection Speaker 1 00:21:31 Yes. There's a story. There. There's a story with that. I'll tell it really fast. And in fifth grade we were in the hallway and world and all of the kids were walking down the, down the hall, straighten the line. My teacher had to have had OCD, shadows, all in straighten aligned, very quiet. Nobody's supposed to say anything. And I sneezed and I'm allowed Snyder sneezer and you know, it was fifth grade. So what am I, 10, 11, whole hallway down. I could hear the thing echoing back at me. I just, I sneezed loud and she lost it. And I was so uncouth and disgusting. And you will not act like that. I got held after class. I lost recess for the entire week. And I had to write 5,000 times or 5,000 words. I will not belch in public. Like, well, this isn't belching, this isn't belching. I sneezed. Speaker 2 00:22:21 Did you explain that to her? Speaker 1 00:22:22 Yeah, well, I tried, but I was, I was practically in tears. Um, I don't remember crying, but maybe I did, but I had to write that out and I was confused. I didn't know what was Speaker 2 00:22:32 Going on. Got a sneeze for goodness sake. Speaker 1 00:22:34 Cause she was, her reaction was way overboard. And every time I sneeze now for my, for the rest of my life, I think about that moment. Speaker 2 00:22:42 Wow. Very traumatic. So Speaker 1 00:22:44 That's why I bring it up. It's such a simple little thing and I did sneeze loud and should, I've learned how to control it. Absolutely. Um, but nobody ever, nobody ever said it to me at 11. Nobody ever said, Hey dude, you gotta chill that out. And that would've been, I would've been fine. That been a much better way of putting it, but the way she put it was I needed to be disgusted about it. I needed to be embarrassed about complete service, Speaker 2 00:23:06 A perfectly natural thing. That is so weird. Yeah. It's funny. I mean, cause we talk with our kids all the time. Um, them both being autistic as well. It's um, my daughter said something to my son, you know, about his appearance. Uh, I think it was yesterday at dinner. And so, you know, I took the time to say, you know, because obviously, you know, he took it in stride, but you know, you could tell he's like, ah, that's kind of rude. You know, he didn't say anything because you know, he's cool like that, you know, but I told my daughter, I said, you know, Hey, you know, um, you know, Isaac might take it a certain way. And so you might want to think about how, you know, outside of the house, inside of the house, we're okay. We're all, okay, we're going to take it and start. We want you to be you and you know, still be you. But uh, you know, be aware that when you say something, you know, people on the other side will react sometimes, especially if it's about their appearance, you know? And, and so, you know, we had that little conversation, but it's like, uh, hopefully that was a lot better than, uh, you're disgusting and awful. My God, you know, like she's really, Speaker 1 00:24:03 It was definitely pathology pathological. So when you mentioned that maybe there are things that you apply yeah. Autism or just mean imposter syndrome. Um, I was actually, I was gonna call this or not a call that was on, uh, uh, Twitter spaces this morning. If you're familiar, it's like a voice chat that Twitter's trying to beta. You can sit in and listen, listen to people. And there's some really famous designers in my field, uh, Pablo Stanley. And he was talking about how he has imposter syndrome and he suffers from it. He's always, he said, you know, I'm CEO of my company. I've been, I've been, you know, the, uh, uh, designer of this designer that he's an amazing designer and I love his work. Um, and he's saying that he is a complete imposter. He's waiting for somebody to figure out that he's, that he, that he doesn't belong. Speaker 2 00:24:47 But you said, um, earlier that you were, uh, you wanted to get into w was it public speaking for, for autism in the workplace as well? I mean, that was Speaker 1 00:24:57 Yes. Yeah. Um, so I, years ago I joined a club called Toastmasters. I don't know if you're familiar, it's a public speaking, speaking club because I wanted to be, um, a public speaker. I wanted me to go down it I'm in the design field and I need to be better at presentation. I knew that was a weakness of mine. So, and I knew that, and whenever I presented, I, I I'd get flushed, I would can present. And I think that was part of the autism kicking in as the anxiety around the whole thing. I had no control over it. And people are like, well, present more present more often. And you'll get over that. So I joined Toastmasters and I was in it for like a year. And I'm like, I'm still not getting over this. Um, you know, you have it, like, you're just seven minutes speeches and still not getting over it. Speaker 1 00:25:37 So, uh, over and over again, you have to do impromptu 32nd speeches. You have to do impromptu two-minute speeches. And then there's seven minute speeches or icebreaker speeches. There's 20 minutes speeches. So there's all these speeches you have to do. And they're there. They kind of give you a curriculum of what to do. I thought, you know what, this is a structured method for me to get better at something you want to get better at. Let's do it. Of course, anything, anything I do, I kind of went a little overboard and the president stepped down and he was like, I think you should run it. So I ended up being the president of the club for a year and a half. And, um, but so I, that meant I had to speak at every meeting. Um, and then if we couldn't and then if we couldn't find speakers, cause it was a small club, it really small club and it was a small club at our company. Speaker 1 00:26:18 So it was basically just the people in our building. We invited people from other people in, but it was really just our company that went to this, meet that it went to this group. So I had to speak at almost every single meeting, always felt like I was going to pass out every single speech. Um, so doing it more didn't didn't make that go away, but it did make me really good at presenting. And I was already a speaker. I already loved speaking. And so when I left salt Lake city, I didn't pick that up. When I came back up here, when I came up here to Seattle, but it was kind of on my radar of things to do. And over COVID, there's been a lot of conferences happening and they're all electronic conferences. Um, and I have a feeling that those types of electronic conferences are going to continue. Speaker 1 00:27:01 Uh, some of them, the smaller in nature, maybe they're just a day, maybe they're just a few days, there's lots of opportunities to speak. And since I have been on the spectrum, I it's been my, um, hyperfocus, my special interest to learn everything I can think about, um, everything I can find out about. What's it like to be on the spectrum in as an adult, as a, as a, um, as a designer and there's information out there for programmers. There's not a lot of information for designers, but yet I hear a lot of designers suffer from imposter syndrome and they, there, there's a huge, there's a large group of designers suffering from, uh, from being introverts. They're labeled introverts. And, but this can get in the way of, of, of some of the things that we need to do as designers, we need to talk to people, right? Speaker 1 00:27:48 You need to, to inter interface with users, we need to, you feel comfortable in these types of actions, in these types of things. I'm currently being mentored by someone who told me the best way to get over these types of things is to know it. No, you have imposter syndrome. No, that it's wrong. No, that you're, that you're worthy of the work that you're doing. Someone is paying you to do the work you're doing. Somebody thought you could do it. Most likely you can. So I don't care if you haven't, if you're an imposter or not go do it. Nice. And that was some, that was amazing advice. And, um, what was the question? Speaker 1 00:28:30 Oh, and yeah. And so all of this came came about. And so within the last month I've been thinking a lot more about speaking on, about being neurodiverse to the design audience. Um, I, a couple of years ago, my boss that I, that I absolutely loved, she she's, the one that I told was, was autistic. She was with me during the diagnosis. She's helped me a lot. Um, she has been a amazing support just as support as a boss, but not also a support as me being autistic. She's amazing. Um, she left about three weeks ago. Um, very sad to see her go, but yeah, it was two years ago. She brought in somebody to speak to the team about being nerd nerd about neuro-diversity in tech. And it was a great, it was two hour session where she came in and, and it was, she didn't come in and actually she was on a WebEx, um, and this was pre COVID. Speaker 1 00:29:21 So we were all in the conference room and, um, but I, she knew then that I was on the spectrum and she brought it in to, to talk about the people who might not know they're on the spectrum. And it really was a really moving thing for me to see somebody like that. I reached out to her on Twitter and said, you know, thank you for being, uh, I I'm always looking for people the field, but it still didn't feel right because she was in tech, she's a programmer. Okay. And people on the spectrum who were programmers, I don't a hundred percent meshed up with them either. Okay. I know how to program. I'm actually really good with, uh, with HTML CSS. I can build, uh, build things in react. I'm actually pretty good at the, uh, coding languages. Okay. But, um, I've never, I decided to go down the art field instead of the programming field. Speaker 1 00:30:07 And, um, so I don't really mesh with those people who are really, really autistic on the technical fields. Gotcha. So when I see them talking about how do they work, they still work differently than me. Sure. So I, haven't seen a lot of, a lot of benefit for people on the spectrum who are in the design field. So long story short. Um, I would, I have a five-year goal to start doing speeches, to talk to people about being in the design field and being autistic and how that, how that, how that can help people, uh, what troubles they may have, what troubles they're probably having that they think are roadblocks, but are actually, um, um, are actually something that we'll probably avoid helpful for you. Speaker 2 00:30:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That actually a that's perfect. And it kind of brings us into, um, you know, in the workplace, what, you know, uh, having autism, what are things that are helpful in maybe, uh, harder roadblocks for you? Speaker 1 00:31:02 So when it comes to my job, uh, being a product designer, it's all about knowing the user. So there's a, there's a high level of empathy required. And there's also an idea that people on the spectrum don't have empathy. Yeah. I wholeheartedly disagree with that. I have so much empathy. It sometimes might need to sneak up on me because I might not notice if somebody is, is beside me when you're doing certain facial features. I might notice, but the moment I know, I'm like, I can feel it with them wholeheartedly. Yeah. What I don't have as sympathy, um, I can feel your hurt about something happening, or if a friend's parent dies, I can feel the hurt. I'll be there for them. I'll go to the funeral. But when it comes to actually telling them, I'm sorry for your loss, that sounds so easy. I can't do that. Speaker 4 00:31:54 Well. I think he and I, and I think that trope, that, that, that stupid stereotype that we are, that we don't have empathy comes from the fact that that many of us, myself included have a hard time figuring out the best way to express the empathy we do feel. Yes. Speaker 1 00:32:12 That's, that's what I was thinking. And, um, through some of my therapy, that's what we've came to the conclusion as well. It's hard for me to identify and express exactly what emotion I'm feeling. Yeah. Essentially, you know, is the, is that, is that fear? Is it shame? Is it guilt? And what is this, what is this emotion I'm feeling? I can't really describe to you. And also some emotions are delayed. Like when, when my mom passed, I was in work mode. Okay. Well, we've got to do certain things. We got to clean out our house. We've got to go there. We got it. We got tasks to do. And it wasn't until a few days later where the emotion hit. Speaker 3 00:32:47 Yeah. That's similar. When my daughter was born, she was in the hospital for the first month and it was all, and Thora was at a different hospital that there were two different hospitals and I was just in go mode and I was getting wasted care of, and it felt good, but it's, uh, and I had the, compartmentalised so much of it. Uh, you know, uh, until now when I see those pictures, now I get emotional at the time I was, it didn't affect me at all, emotionally, emotionally, it was just stuff that needed to be taken care. It was no big deal. It was, but it was also, I wasn't, I didn't want to get attached yet. Cause I wasn't sure if it was there, she was going to make it kind of thing. So it was just like, I'm just here. I love you. Speaker 3 00:33:29 You know? But uh, not that it was such a weird feeling that they didn't let us actually hold her for two weeks. Yeah. Well it was until then I got, I think I was sick for a few days and I couldn't go in the hospital. And then, uh, I do remember that, that feeling of just wanting, you know, like I had like a pair of Huggies or something like that, or, you know, like, uh, you know, a box of Huggies into had that smell. And I was like, it reminded me of, you know, the smell and I was just like, I put a picture of her it and I just held that and said, yeah, Speaker 1 00:34:01 Yeah, yeah. Those delayed, uh, emotions. Um, for a long time, I thought I was broken. I thought that I didn't feel emotions like everybody else. And, and you know, maybe I didn't, maybe I don't, but I definitely feel so empathy when it comes to empathy at work. Um, that's really important for a product designer to be able to empathize somebody and get in their seat and so think of how they, they need to use something. And I actually feel that the, my, my deep empathy helps me. Um, I can, I can feel and think about things that I have to actually, I have to explain to someone, because for me, it's just second nature. You know, that, that shouldn't be like that. It should absolutely not be like that. And then I have to explain to somebody why, and they're like, Oh, you're right. And it's because I just have this innate feeling of, of empathy to, to being a user. Um, you know, I'm a user, I need to swipe a credit card. I need to hit a button. What am I doing at that moment? I'm pulling a card out of my pocket. I'm putting it in the thing. What am I, what do I need to do instead? You know, what am I, what are the actions I can actually feel and see the pictures in my head I can get in that person's actions. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:35:08 That's, I mean, that's super helpful. Yeah. And I think you're pointing, pointing at me as he's. He has the, I mean, it's the exact same thing. He has this amazing ability to be anyone. And I say that in a strange way, but it is, it is very much he can, I mean, he can, he can be in the shoes of anyone, uh, even, uh, even a bad person abuser and he can still understand who they are and where they're coming from. And it is, it is fascinating and amazing. And I wish I had it, but I'm glad you do. Speaker 1 00:35:48 Right. My son, my son has a lot of empathy too. Yeah. I think ever since he was a kid, he was, I'm a big news watcher and he would, we'd see him getting emotional about bad things, weather, um, people people's houses getting destroyed by tornadoes, things like that. He was really emotional and really in their shoes. I'm my gosh. That's awful. Speaker 3 00:36:07 Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting too, for your work, it's actually probably for that empathy within the user's experience, um, it's almost, it's like you were saying, well, it's not necessarily sympathetic, so that's actually even more helpful for what you're trying to accomplish. You know, you, you, you put yourself in their shoes without the simp, uh, you know, the sympathy you can accomplish a lot more almost. It's interesting. Speaker 1 00:36:31 Yeah. I don't need sympathy in my job. I need empathy in my job. Yeah. So being, being empathetic with the user is definitely a core principle of, of the user experience. Yeah. Um, so I feel that that actually helps me out a lot. Um, what I also think helps me out a lot is, is my, uh, level-headed emotional, um, take no nonsense kind of way. Um, I was recently given a, a performance review and, uh, hell, I'll tell you, um, I th th th the two people that did it, my, my supervisor told me that she thinks it might be in my, uh, my autistic superpower of having level-headed calm conversations about any topic. I can talk about things that other people won't and my CTO, because my manager was leaving, uh, my CTO step or was in the conversation too. And she said that, um, that I had the highest emotional IQ of anybody or not highest, but I was, I had an, a very high emotional IQ that I, that every conversation that I've ever had with her was very, uh, emotionally intelligent. Um, and I think that that is really good when you're talking about solutions and you need to bring people together to see things a certain way. Um, so they both complemented me on that. Um, that was really amazing to hear. Um, I need to remind myself that that's actually true because you gotta be talking about somebody. Speaker 3 00:37:55 I figured that was covering paperwork because yeah. Speaker 1 00:38:01 There are definitely things that hinder me at work. So my focus, um, my focus can, you can be, as you can see, I'm a talker. I'm not, I'm, I'm, it's hard to keep me on topic at times. Yeah. Um, so focus, um, being able to focus in on, on, on one thing, um, I'm really interested in all things design. So I love to see new, uh, uh, new ways of doing things. And so my focus on doing something one way, the same way, every time is really hard. I like to try something different, like to try something new, but, you know, sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes it's like, well, we just need to get this done fast. Um, and so I have to remind myself to, to not get distracted by the shiny thing. Sometimes I'll start down the shiny, shiny thing track, and actually have to set it aside and go, Nope, start over, do the simple thing. Speaker 1 00:38:47 Um, because, uh, because I do have a lot of muscle memory, the simple thing also doesn't keep me as interested in, okay, it's not, it's not as interesting to just keep doing the same thing all the time. It's muscle memory. You know, this is, uh, this is production work at this point. I, I want to do something that's, that's, that's new. Um, when software comes out with a new update is like, Ooh, what are the new features I gotta find out. I gotta, I have to master them. I have to master those new features. Those things can actually get in the way about my product, my productivity. Yeah. I can see that. And, but those are, those are traits that are really common in the, uh, on an autism spectrum. Yeah. I mean, I, like I said, uh, I wanted to, to let people know that there are things about, uh, being autistic, that don't need to stop you from X, from excelling. And I hope that to your audience gets out, um, I don't like selling, isn't the right word. I'm not, I don't Excel, but you can still, you can still, you can still be, um, be actively what you want to be. And, you know, maybe I'm, maybe I was just lucky that I really enjoyed doing. And my, my special interest is, uh, is a, is a good career. Speaker 3 00:39:54 Sure. Yeah. Well, your life is working for you. Speaker 4 00:39:57 You know, it was interesting. There's so much insight that comes with once you realize that you're autistic. Like for myself, once I realized that I was autistic, um, and I'm going to kind of circle back to that emotion stuff we were talking about, because prior to that, prior to that insight, uh, emotions for me, if I didn't understand it, um, the emotion would just occur as anger, whatever it was, if it was not like, uh, you know, happy, excited, or whatever, anything that was not like positive was anger because I didn't understand it. And I didn't like it and I didn't want to feel it. And so it just, it would just make me angry and, and with the, you know, with the insight of, of being autistic, I can look at that and I can go, okay. You know what? Anger is a reaction. Anger is not an actual feeling. So, so what's the behind the anger. Yeah. And now I can actually like take the time to like separate myself from the feeling so that I can actually identify the feeling. And I think being able to like, look at it that way has helped me a lot. Speaker 3 00:40:58 Yeah. Yeah. You're, you're angry at least one less time a week. No, I'm just kidding. I'm teasing. Speaker 1 00:41:06 That would have helped me when I was at, um, 16 to 18, uh, angsty golf, golf kid. Um, just knowing that, you know, cause I also, I always had a big sense of humor and if anything funny happened, I'd suddenly we go from not being depressed, depressed, and dark to being the clown. So the depressed and dark was not the true me. The clown was, Speaker 4 00:41:28 We talked about your future as a speaker. Um, what is your future, um, what does your future look like? Uh, overall, Speaker 0 00:41:34 If you could, if you could design your own future, Speaker 1 00:41:36 What does that look like? I've been really thinking about that a lot lately because I'm a designer of one. Um, I want to, I want to find more people that I can collaborate with. Um, I want to, I I've been over the last year, even though we're in lockdown, all these electronic ways of, of, of talking to people have come out and, you know, a clubhouse has come out and I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's like a beta invite only. And it's, it's basically like a room of people that just talk about stuff. Okay. There's a little design I'll send you, I'll send you an invite actually. Um, uh, Twitter is like I mentioned it earlier. Twitter spaces is coming out with its beta. So it might be on Twitter, the same kind of functionality, wherever it it's basically it has like a couple speakers and then you have an audience and you can invite people from the audience to come speak. So it's kind of, kind of like a 24 seven conference and even have a hallway. The, the concept of the hallway is where you look at all of the different rooms and you decide what room you want to go into. It's like, it's chat room, it's text chat rooms of the, of the modern day. Speaker 0 00:42:41 It sounds, I mean, it sounds like something I could just get into. I'll let you finish Speaker 1 00:42:46 There. There are tons of topics. So the most common topic is NFTs and Bitcoin. Yeah, a lot of those, but there's, I found this little group of designers that talk and I love to have them talk. It's like the water cooler going on in the background. I just put my headphones in and listen to them. Talk all day about design. And, um, it's amazing. I've joined in, I've met some amazing people. I've talked to them off, uh, off the clubhouse too. And I'm suddenly I'm networking with people. I never would've thought I would have met or networked with before. That's exciting. That's really much. Yeah. It's, it's gotten me really energized for the idea of networking and getting, uh, getting out and working with people. But also I have 20 years of experience that I want to share. Um, I've been, I've been in marketing. Speaker 1 00:43:31 Um, I was in marketing for 15 years. I was in production. I man, I managed a group of, of 10 people doing product design and web design, um, or not product, uh, print, print, design, and web design did that for nine years back in, uh, um, 2000, 2008 to 2015, um, somewhere in there, 20 2006 to 2018 or 2015. Um, and that was really great. I loved mentoring and managing people. Um, it w had a rough start at the beginning. The first couple years were pretty rough until I figured out how to put all the coping mechanisms into place. And then once I figured this out, how do I, how do I interact with people and how do I coach people? Um, it turned into something else and I was able to coach and in part that, um, my wife and my, and some of my friends have told me I'm a, uh, a gifted, uh, trainer, um, that I can, um, that I can really teach people how to do things in a really simple way. So really technical things and teach them in really simple ways. So I'd love to be able to impart that through whether it be, or whether it be working with people. So I can mentor that mentoring junior designers, that's where I want to go. Very cool. It was an absolute pleasure being on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for letting me reach out to you weirdly and, and ask you to be on the show. Speaker 0 00:44:44 No, no, no, no. We were so excited. It was, you were the first person to like reach out to us and ask to be on the show. So we were thrilled like, Oh, this is actually gaining traction. We're super excited. So it's not weird. Speaker 1 00:44:57 I randomly heard about the show in a Facebook channel. Somebody I mentioned at night, Speaker 0 00:45:01 What? That's awesome. I love it. Speaker 1 00:45:04 You even know who said it? I just I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. I'll do a search on that. And then I saw, Oh, a product manager. Oh, I got it. Listen to this. Speaker 2 00:45:10 Nice. Well, we really enjoyed having you on the show. So thank you so much. Speaker 1 00:45:15 Great to speak with you guys. Thank you very much. Speaker 2 00:45:18 That was a good time. Thanks everybody. We're so glad you joined us today. We hope you keep enjoying us. Uh, and we will continue to enjoy you. Speaker 0 00:45:29 Yeah. Every week, Thursday morning, look forward to autism on shift and we'll see you next week. Speaker 2 00:45:36 And if your podcast allows you to, uh, that you're listening to a song, please rate and review us. We'd love to have the feedback, especially if it's good. Thanks.